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by StooltimeCounseling from Michigan

Last Post 4 days, 22 hours Ago


-----A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.
 
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes sir," the student says.
 
"So you believe in God?"
"Absolutely."
 
"Is God good?"
"Sure! God's good."
 
"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"
"Yes."
 
"Are you good or evil?"
"The Bible says I'm evil."
 
The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"
 
"Yes sir, I would."
 
"So you're good...!"
"I wouldn't say that."
 
"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."
 
The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"
 
The student remains silent.
 
"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
 
"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"
"Er...yes," the student says.
 
"Is Satan good?"
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."
 
"Then where does Satan come from?"
The student falters. "From God"
 
"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"
"Yes, sir."
 
"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"
 
"Yes."
 
"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
 
Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"
 
The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."
 
"So who created them?"
 
The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"
 
The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."
 
The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"
 
"No sir. I've never seen Him."
 
"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"
"No, sir, I have not."
 
"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"
 
"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."
"Yet you still believe in him?"
"Yes."
 
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"
 
"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."
"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."
 
The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"
 
"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."
 
"And is there such a thing as cold?"
"Yes, son, there's cold too."
"No sir, there isn't."
 
The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."
 
"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."
 
Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.
 
"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"
 
"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"
 
"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."
 
"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"
 
The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"
 
"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."
 
The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"
 
"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."
 
"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."
 
"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"
 
"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."
 
"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
 
The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
 
"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"
 
The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.
 
"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."
 
The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.
 
"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."
 
"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"
 
Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.
 
Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."
 
"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"
 
Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
 
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
 
The professor sat down. 
 
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car7858 read my blog view my photos
Dec 20, 2007 | 10:22 PM

AHHAAA!! There's a good message for this time of the season, eh Stooltime Counseling? I know if I had not had faith in Him when I began recovery, I would surely have failed on my own. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to you & yours!

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Dec 21, 2007 | 6:41 AM

Thanks, Car. Merry Christmas to you and your family, too!

I like the logic used in my post above. I didn't write it; it was an e-mail from my uncle.

Here's how I like the logic: Old age is really not old age. It is the absence of youth.

We can go on and on ... It stops people from looking at the world in black and white terms.

Take care, Car. Keep on blogging!

shockhazard read my blog view my photos
Dec 21, 2007 | 8:21 AM

Great p[ost stoolime ! Merry Christmas and good to see you again .

car7858 read my blog view my photos
Dec 21, 2007 | 10:39 PM

Agreed Stooltime Counseling! Your logic seems to be flawless and the optomistic point of view will always prevail. The "half-empty or half-full glass" is always a determining factor in how people react to anything these days, including their own personal issues. My optomistic view carries me through dark days/nights and the only way something negative can happen to me is if I let it.

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Dec 22, 2007 | 12:32 AM

Nice new picture of yourself, Car. You're looking dapper. You're right about the attitude thing.

Hey, Shock. Good to see you're back! Merry Christmas to you and your family, too. Since you live in Chesterfield, have you seen my Adopt-A-Road signs on Gratiot between 23 and 24 mile roads? It keeps me busy twice a year picking up trash. I haven't found any money yet, but you wouldn't believe how many used condoms people throw out their windows while driving down Gratiot. Pretty sick.

shockhazard read my blog view my photos
Dec 22, 2007 | 8:33 AM

Stop by when you're in the hood stooltime , I'll give a hand and we can do nog , or coffee .

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Dec 23, 2007 | 1:41 AM

I appreciate the offer to help, Shock. We'll see. Coffee at Dimitris, on the other hand, sounds a lot better right now than picking up roadside trash.

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 8, 2008 | 1:36 PM

The post is not bad, not bad at all. However the analysis is flawed.

First, I don't like this professor, he is very unprofessional.

Second, the student didn't prove anything, he just used wordplay. Clearly the professors brain is testable, can be seen, can be touched or tasted, etc. The argument being made here is not one of Christianity, but of deism. The student does not even realize that he just said that there is no God, that God is just a word to describe the absence of something like "cold" or "darkness."

Third, the premise of the student's statement is wrong. He is not operating on any reasonable premise, he is assuming that there is a God and that God is good. Aside from finding this premise extremely offensive as he just called me evil because I have no God, there still lies the Hitchens challenge. Name for me a moral statement made or a righteous action performed by a believer that could not have been made or done by a non-believer. Likewise, can you name a wicked action or a bigoted statement made that could only have been made because of somebody's religion? Nobody has any hesitation, one only need think back to September of 2001 to see the consequences of a faith based initiative taken to its natural end.

Eschatology is inseparable from religious belief. Once God is established and the divine, oblivion is discarded. Without oblivion you are without consequence in your actions. Every person you kill does not die but rather goes on to another life or if you believe in a really wicked religion such as Islam or Christianity then God

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 8, 2008 | 1:37 PM

Islam or Christianity then God joins in on the fun and has them tormented for all eternity while rewarding your for doing his will. Only with God can people give themselves permission to do anything.

Religion says that your sins can be forgiven, that you can be absolved of personal responsibility if you just show loyalty to their organization or set of beliefs. What is moral about being absolved of your responsibilities in such a manner? What is moral about vicarious redemption, that through a human sacrifice a man took the burden of your sins and we know because of the mass zombie risings that took place after of not just Jesus, but of all the local graveyards containing the various Saints as reported in Matthew. Only with divine consent, absolute and unquestionable moral supremacy can a person give themselves license to do evil.

However theism is not what was addressed here, the idea of Christianity as the article begins as the religion of choice. Theisms says that not only do we know that there is a God, but that we can know his mind. The argument here is deism, word play, and God of the Gaps (which actually is in many ways theistic). However, because the premise of the student is wrong, the conclusion is likely wrong (you cannot say the conclusion is absolutely wrong, that would not be logical. The only thing wrong with a false premise is the line of reasoning that explains the conclusion).

If those with God can commit evil, then evil is not the absence of God. If those without God can commit good, then God is not required for good. If God is no

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 8, 2008 | 1:38 PM

If God is not required for good and evil is an inevitability of religious faith (as it absolves you of your responsibility, gives you divine permission to do your will as long as it is channeled through the divine surrogate, eradicates oblivion desensitizing you to murder and death, and demanding action be taken for God as theism does) then there is no need for religion, and since there is no evidence for any religion on the face of the Earth being true, to live our lives as though God or unicorns or dragons (all three of which are the Bible) existed is inherently wicked and inherently wrong.

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Feb 10, 2008 | 1:05 AM

In any event, the post is food for thought, not intended to convert or offend anybody.

I don't think religion absolves people of being irresponsible. That's an easy deduction to make, based on a misunderstanding of the sacrament of reconciliation.

I think religion tries to help people live their lives to the best of their ability. It works for some, and not for others. Just like counseling or therapy works for some, and not for others.

For some, the humbling of one's ego, by having a belief in a power greater than oneself, works.

It does for me!

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 10, 2008 | 12:07 PM

Again, I would have to ask you to tell me a moral statement made or a righteous act performed by a believer that cannot be done by a non-believer. Can I not be humble? Can I not be charitable? I can, and I have. However, can you name a wicked action that could have only been performed in the name of a religion? Sure, Hamas does great charitable work, so does Hezballah, so does Louis Farakan's group, does that make them good? If you are going to boil religion down to charity work then you make the job of the atheists much easier.

The behavior of the faithful is irrelevant to the substance of the doctrine. Somebody can claim to believer int he religion and do good things, but tell me stooltime, when was the last time you stoned to death somebody for working on the Sabbath as the Bible commands? When was the last time you sold your daughter into slavery? When was the last time you mutilated your child's genitalia after he/she was born? Actually, that wicked action you probably have done and done for the sake of your religion (or conformity). You say you believe in the zombie religion, the religion that says that your sins are forgiven because of a human sacrifice that took place before you were born, but you don't practice it.

The Bible is like the IRS income tax code. Everyone knows about it, everyone has been told what is says, everyone has been told to live their lives by it, but nobody has ever read it and if anybody did then they would realize that what they have been told it says vs. what it actually says is so far apart that you would not accept it

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 10, 2008 | 12:08 PM

would not accept it if you read it. Both are enforced with violence and coercion, both depend upon the ignorance and fear of their adherents. You don't think religion absolves people of their responsibility? Exactly, you are ignorant of what you religion says, not stupid, ignorant, you don't know what your Bible says, likely only what your preacher says and what you can rationalize in your own mind. Religion is predicated on coercion and violence, that if you do as you are told then you get a divine reward and if you are disobedient then your loving God has a special place for you to burn and be tortured for all of time. Religion demands simultaneous love and simultaneous fear, a horrible doctrine. I can live my life as a good man for all my life, but if I do not accept Jesus Christ, the human sacrifice that became a zombie (along with the rest of the town's dead as depicted in Matthew who rose from their graves and walked the Earth as zombies with Jesus), then I will burn in Hell for all eternity. Do you really believe that? In the end, that concept is what religion boils down to. Do what "God" says (as written in whatever text is being pushed) or you will be punished. Do what "God" says and you will be rewarded. I don't need a divine dominatrix for me to understand basic morality and human decency and nether do you. Throw off this superstition, raise yourself to the level where charlatanry cannot poison your life. After all, how do you know your religion is right other than you were simply born into it?

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 10, 2008 | 12:08 PM

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 11:00 AM

Tim,
You are absolutely correct when you write about the Old Testament in the Bible. There are countless accounts of man's inhumanity toward man. You get no argument from me on that. What I believe, then, is that God then sent his son, Jesus, to this earth to help people see our wicked ways. Through the example of Jesus, people are challenged to change their thoughts and actions.

The New Testament is not perfect either, but it is a step in the right direction. Many accounts written in the new testament are written by people, who have violent histories, but have been converted to a better way of life. It is hopeful to say people can change, and that is the implied message of the New Testament.

Some people don't believe in hope because of what others call reality. I say, reality can be harsh, and please don't take away my hope because of it.

Because people are people, believers and non-believers are fundamentally the same. All of us are capable of doing good works. All of us have within us a mean streak, too.

The New Testament is one example of how some people can temper their mean streak. It doesn't work for everybody because it is one example. Everybody can find what works for them. I say, lets just treat everybody in a civilized way.

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 11:11 AM

Some will say that civilization started about 5,000 years ago, when conditions on earth were a lot more harsh than they are today. Some scientists say that in 2008, humans are only using about 10%-15% of their brain power. If it took about 5,000 years to learn to use only 15% of our brain power, I'm not expecting too much change in human behavior and thinking in my lifetime. But we still need to work towards that end if we want civilization to live up to its name.

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 1:02 PM

No no no, the New Testament is worse than the Old Testament. For all its viciousness, for all the genocide, when the jealous God has killed you off because you were not of the tribe that he favored, he is done with you. Not until gentle Jesus the son of God did the idea of eternal torment and hell fire get introduced. What is moral about vicarious redemption, that another person can die for your sins? If I liked you enough, I could pay your debts (I'm not going to, but I could). In some societies if I believed in you enough I could even serve your term in prison for you. In the most extreme case, I could take your place under the gallows, but I could not absolve you of what you have done, I could not alleviate you the responsibility for your sin. I don't think you would want to be absolved of your responsibility that way, to have somebody else be forced into human sacrifice so that you can be forgiven, all yo have to do is accept the human sacrifice and the zombie that Jesus became.

I have to ask though, how can you judge the Old Testament? Is it not the word of God? If you are a Christian you must accept both the Old Testament AND the New Testament. If the text is the word of God, and your God is perfect, you can't throw out some of the parts of the Bible, just because you don't like them. You cannot simply say that you are under the impression that Jesus and Christianity conforms to YOUR morality and that is why you accept it. No, you must accept all the claims of Christianity in of themselves and then throw out your morality and follow the faith or else

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 1:45 PM

faith or else you are not living a Christian life, you are simply living a moral life. Even if you do accept the subjective moral claims of the Bible and live by them, you cannot throw out the objective claims of the Bible because according to the faith, they come from the same source and thus carry the same weight.

If you cannot protect the integrity of your Bible, then you have no Bible. You cannot simply "interpret" the parts that conflict with the rules of the society that you live in. I think Monty Python's "Life of Brian" illustrates the point quite nicely when showing people far from the mount that Jesus is preaching from who can't hear him arguing among themselves over what is being said when one says:

"What did he say?"
"I think he said blessed is the cheese makers."
"Well what is so special about the cheese makers?"
"No no, it's not to be taken literally, it really means anybody in the dairy industry."

Re-read Titus, slavery is still permitted in the New Testament. Do you believe in slavery?

Again, as you say that the New Testament gives examples of how to temper a mean streak and behave morally, I have to ask you the Hitchens challenge again. Name for me a moral statement made or a righteous action performed by a believer that cannot be performed by a non-believer. Likewise, can you name a wicked action that could only be performed by somebody in the name of their religion? I've never met anyone who has had hesitation in any faith to list an example. Certainly in this country we need not think past 2001 to find a vivid example of a well

Michigan_Man read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 2:13 PM

2001 to find a vivid example of a well executed faith based initiative. Religion is rooted in immorality, it is the inculcation by coercion. Faith is the surrender of the mind, the surrender of reason, the surrender of the only thing that separates us from the other animals on this planet.

No, there are not any scientists saying that we only use 10-15% of our brain, that is just an urban myth. We use all of our brain.

People who claim that civilization started about 5,000 years ago are...stupid. There is very clear archaeological and historical evidence that puts human existence going back at least 100,000 years.

If you are going to make an objective claim then please provide some links to some evidence.

StooltimeCounseling read my blog view my photos
Feb 11, 2008 | 9:42 PM

I guess it just depends on the source:

Human civilization:

http://evolution-facts.org/Appendix/a06.htm

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StooltimeCounseling

Good day! My name is Mark Rogers. I am a Licensed Professional Counselor and Certified Sports Counselor, Diplomate. I also work on the Human Development Steering Committee and Public Relations Committee with the Statue Of Responsibility Foundation. Google, "Stooltime Counseling", to go to my website, where you can read a number of self-help articles I have written.

Member Since: 5/20/2007